May 2017 prelims adding new cars

GT3 Class Discussions
User avatar
disquek
Needs a Life!!!
Needs a Life!!!
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:58 pm
Car: Toyota Tercel GTL #92
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by disquek » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:38 pm

It's great to see some thoughts from you guys.

My suggestions are:
- Write letters about this. If they see only a handful of letters over a huge change like this, they will wonder if anyone even cares about GT3. https://www.crbscca.com/
- Call and email your GT3 friends and tell them to write a letter. I'd bet no more than ten guys read this forum. Tell them to do the same. Think chain letter.
- Forget about whatever thing was the bee in your bonnet and get out and race your car. Nothing other than this can save a class.
- If you know of cars under construction, or being dusted off, start making a list of them. In GTL we put together a portfolio of cars that were in-progress and that helped us convince them to give us the chance to show that we were a vital class. You're not there yet (no gun to GT3s head ... yet). This will help you get in front of anything.
- Help each other. Actively. For example, If you have some take off tires, post it up.
- Make it fun. Have a party at an event. BBQ some burgers and dogs and get a case of beer. Invite everyone.
------------------------
Kyle Disque
GTL 92
Philadelphia Region

sunfire72
New Member
New Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:34 pm

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by sunfire72 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:23 pm

This sounds like a bad idea to me. The base numbers look like it might work, but the torque potential of the turbo'ed engines changes everything.

As for bringing in "disenfranchised GT2 cars" I started down that road when CRB announced changes to GT2. It has been a very frustrating experience. I am fine with the 31mm restrictor and the jump to GT3 weight; I expected some additional wgt for the 16" wheels, but 150lbs has been very hard to swallow (2345# total.) I have appealed to the CRB several times for partial relief and have received increasingly negative response(see Feb 2015 Fastrack for most recent.) What I have now is a disenfranchised GT2/disenfranchised GT3.

John, as far as encouraging other GT2 competitors to submit proposals, they going to wind up down the same dead end I am in, unless the CRB has changed its position and not told anybody.

Per the above, I will have a very difficult time writing an objective and diplomatic letter on this proposal.

To the GT3 competitors on this thread who believe cars like mine should be in your class, write the CRB urging adoption of a fair weight penalty for the wheels. Maybe 50-75#. I don't want an overdog, just a chance to be competitive.

Thanks,
Bill

Collin Jackson
Needs a Life!!!
Needs a Life!!!
Posts: 362
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:18 pm

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by Collin Jackson » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:09 pm

Bill

What do you drive ,and what driveline?

User avatar
blitzgt3
Forum Hermit
Forum Hermit
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:42 am
Car: GT-3 rotary Miata

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by blitzgt3 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:36 am

Thanks for the input Bill.
Guys,
This is the place to discuss this! Let's get a good discussion going!
What do you think is a fair weight penalty for 16" wheels?
Do you think GT3 should open up it's wheel diameter and width rules?
What would you like to see happen with GT3 to make it more attractive?
John Mills
08-present GT-3 Mazda Miata
04-07 GT-3 Mazda RX-3
94-03 GT-4 Opel Manta
89-93 ITB Opel Manta

User avatar
disquek
Needs a Life!!!
Needs a Life!!!
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:58 pm
Car: Toyota Tercel GTL #92
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by disquek » Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:31 pm

Still only a couple of letters in the CRB system for this.

You guys need to write letters. The link is in my post above.

How can the Club consider GT3 to be a viable class if they only get a handful of letters over a major change like this one?

Sending a letter takes 5 minutes. If you can't be civil, ask your wife to proof read it.

This is important.
------------------------
Kyle Disque
GTL 92
Philadelphia Region

User avatar
blitzgt3
Forum Hermit
Forum Hermit
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:42 am
Car: GT-3 rotary Miata

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by blitzgt3 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:19 pm

I just submitted my letter. Short and to the point. I'll share it here.
For those of you who agree with my feelings I give you permission to copy & paste or modify as you see fit.
Use Kyle's link. It's quick and easy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I oppose the addition of cars into GT3 that are not consistent with the philosophy of the class as defined by the SCCA in the GCR.

A. PURPOSE The GT Category is intended to provide the membership and interested manufacturers with the opportunity to compete in purpose built, highly modified replicas of series produced automobiles. To that end, cars shall be classified in GT Classes based on their competitive potential. The Club may alter or adjust specifications and require, permit, or restrict certain specific components to equate competitive potential. The SCCA does not guarantee the competitiveness of any car.

Specifically the BMW 235i. It's 3.0 twin turbo V6 is well beyond the GT3 parameters, as are the wheels, tires, transmission, electronics, track dimensions and weight.

As a long time GT class competitor, I welcome adjustments within the current rules package that would result in increasing participation numbers while not making current cars non-competitive. Wheels, tires, engines, body work, etc.
John Mills
08-present GT-3 Mazda Miata
04-07 GT-3 Mazda RX-3
94-03 GT-4 Opel Manta
89-93 ITB Opel Manta

Joe Harlan
Needs a Life!!!
Needs a Life!!!
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:51 pm
Car: GTL 2004 Sentra GT3/GTL 240sx
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/TopTechMotorsports/
Location: Oregon City, Or.

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by Joe Harlan » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:57 pm

In addition to writing letters, Provide some data. I know two GT3 cars being reconstructed for GT3 both tube framed Nissans. My new GTL car will run GTL and GT3 for the 2018 season. I believe the west coast runoffs with bring out 5 to 10 cars that are sitting. A major change in philosophy will do as much damage to GT3 as the V/8 cars have done to GT2 traditional cars.
Joe Harlan

tpatton
Ready to Write a Book
Ready to Write a Book
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:28 pm
Car: 1967 Sunbeam Tiger GT2
Location: Hamilton, OH

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by tpatton » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:41 am

I have no dog in this fight however I do not agree with the branding of GT2 as a failure. Yes there is work to do but if you will talk to any of us that were running as traditional GT2 cars I believe that the majority will say the racing is more fun as we have more cars, quality cars at each event. Jim , Pete, Bob and I will continue to disagree on each others needs and what we want to see but the GT2 is exciting. Yes there were cars that did not fit the the new class and those need to be looked at to add to GT3 like Bill's Sunfire or the 944s. GT3 needs participation but also needs quality participation. Ask Jeff if he had a good time racing at VIR. The BMW might not be a good fit for GT3. Now is the time to look for other cars that will add to the GT3 grid and be willing to see the big picture as your class evolves.
Tom Patton
GT2 Sunbeam Tiger
Cincinnati Region

Joe Harlan
Needs a Life!!!
Needs a Life!!!
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:51 pm
Car: GTL 2004 Sentra GT3/GTL 240sx
Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/TopTechMotorsports/
Location: Oregon City, Or.

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by Joe Harlan » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:53 am

tpatton wrote:I have no dog in this fight however I do not agree with the branding of GT2 as a failure. Yes there is work to do but if you will talk to any of us that were running as traditional GT2 cars I believe that the majority will say the racing is more fun as we have more cars, quality cars at each event. Jim , Pete, Bob and I will continue to disagree on each others needs and what we want to see but the GT2 is exciting. Yes there were cars that did not fit the the new class and those need to be looked at to add to GT3 like Bill's Sunfire or the 944s. GT3 needs participation but also needs quality participation. Ask Jeff if he had a good time racing at VIR. The BMW might not be a good fit for GT3. Now is the time to look for other cars that will add to the GT3 grid and be willing to see the big picture as your class evolves.
Sorry Tom, I guess I have to choose my words a little better. It was not a failure in making numbers, It has displaced most of the traditional V/6 inline six and big 4 cylinder cars with supercars and TA2 cars for the most part. That was the caution mark I was saying about GT3. There are a bunch of great GT3 cars sitting around the country that first should be encouraged to come out and play. GTL has had the Grandfather of the class putting these sitting cars in the hands of funded drivers with rental and lease and purchase options. There are several of us that kinda heard the cats to get GTL cars to key events. As I said 2 rebuilt GT3 cars are coming out this year and there are at least 5 to 10 cars sitting on the west coast. The answer is not shaking up the whole class it is getting the cars out on the track. Again sorry for the choice of words.
Joe Harlan

Matt93SE
Forum Hermit
Forum Hermit
Posts: 166
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:25 pm

Re: May 2017 prelims adding new cars

Post by Matt93SE » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:48 pm

Joe, what do you think is/are the reason(s) those cars are sitting? Is it cost to operate, competition/lack thereof, rules, economy, raceday class grouping, competitors moving to other sanctioning bodies, etc?
And is this specific to local GT3 cars, the region/division as a group, or SCCA as a whole?

I'm racing my EP car a lot less because it's several times the operating cost of my STU car. I'm told GT cars are 'cheap' to operate, but that is of course a perspective. My STU car lasts 3 weekends on a set of DOT takeoffs. My EP car cooks a set of sticker slicks in a weekend. brake pads and rotors last multiple seasons on my STU car. EP car, they last 1.5-2 weekends. I budget for an engine rebuild once a season for EP car. STU car is still on OEM original engine (slow, but won't die!) you get the point. $500 in operating costs for a weekend, or $2000. What's 'typical' operating for these parked GT3 cars?

GT3 as a whole is declining in participation, so are there multiple 'local' issues, or do you see it as a common class-wide problem?

So what does it take to get the cars sitting out and racing again?

I myself can't commit to any more races due to budget. I had hoped to eventually double-enter my EP car in GT3 a la Tom Thrash... He would swap carb & intake manifold and bolt on a between groups and was (locally) competitive in both classes. however, there's no GT3s in my area to run against and I'm cringing at the thought of my tire bill if I add 50hp and aero to the car that's already cooking tires in 4 heat cycles. throw in two young kids and a declining job market here, I have way less time and money than I did 6 years ago when I bought the car...

Most of the issues I see around here aren't necessarily SCCA or class specific, with the exception that the 'cheaper' classes to run are growing while most of the others are declining. SM, STL, and SRF/3 are very healthy. There are also a fair amount of EP, T4, and 'new GT2' cars. everything else is pretty much in decline in the area, barely able to complete a podium.

.... I guess if it was easy to answer those questions, we wouldn't be asking why participation was so low...
Matt Blehm
Houston Region
STU 240SX
EP/GT3 RX7 (Eventually)

Post Reply